Comments for Sitting down to speak up at http://www.tenhillplace.com , comment 1 to 20 out of 20 comments http://www.tenhillplace.com Thu, 23 May 2013 07:36:50 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-80 To Ben who says: "I think it's incredibly disappointing to see trainee groups deliberately undermining Mr Ahmed and emailing out the suggestion to criticize him on this forum. I don't feel that is a constructive method to take their disagreement forward. " Not a good point I'm afraid. The general feeling of trainees is that Mr Ahmed's views do not represent them, therefore I would suggest you argue your point rather than claiming Mr Ahmed just shouldn't be criticised because he shouldn't be! I suggest Ben take note of the views of trainees/ASiT/BOTA/Remedy etc before defending a rather indefensible viewpoint. regards - ben dean Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:31:46 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-78 Mr Issaq has been poorly informed on the issue of EWTD compliance in Europe. It is most disappointing that the individual views of a RCSEd trainee ‘representative’ have failed to represent those of the overwhelming majority of surgical trainees on this issue. If similarly unrepresentative views are forthcoming may I suggest that Mr Issaq’s position may be historical rather than ‘historic.’ - C Barker Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:39:10 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-77 Quality of training has to be at least as important as the quantity (in terms of hours). Trainees, the tutors, the colleges and intersted parties should work together to ensure that the training we recieve within the 48 hours is of the highest possible quality, before deciding the whole situation is failing. I do not want to work extra hours, only to have those hours filled with more paperwork or shifts covering ward work that in themselves do not address my learning needs. Hours should only be increased with the agreement of the trainees involved, with a specification of how our training needs would be met in this time and how we would be renumerated. - R. West Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:09:57 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-76 I read with great concern the recent article introducing the ‘historic’ RCSEd trainee council member, Mr. Issaq Ahmed. Not only is he misinformed, but perhaps most worrisome is his claim to represent the surgical trainee. It has been quite clearly demonstrated that the majority of surgical trainees do not support the EWTD and feel its introduction has had a negative impact on training. Our continental colleagues share this sentiment and continue to work outside the boundaries of this directive with their respective governments adopting a more laissez-faire attitude to its implementation. Unless Mr. Ahmed has undertaken a recent survey that I am unaware of, he has fundamentally misinterpreted the recent evidence on this subject or, perhaps more concerning, unashamedly ignored it. May I respectively suggest that in order for Mr. Ahmed’s council position to be truly historic he should at the very least portray accurately the views of the trainees to the council as opposed to those of the council to the trainees. - Robert Davies Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:51:50 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-75 I think it's incredibly disappointing to see trainee groups deliberately undermining Mr Ahmed and emailing out the suggestion to criticize him on this forum. I don't feel that is a constructive method to take their disagreement forward. - Ben Thu, 11 Aug 2011 17:44:43 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-74 Mr Ahmed is clearly a very accomplished professional. However, academic success does not qualify him to represent his fellow trainees reliably. I respect his decision not to seek election within BOTA so as not to represent orthopaedic views only - but by not representing any trainee body, he is currently in a postion to represent no views but his own. It is interesting that the ASIT representation at RCSEd has recently been removed. The ASIT position on EWTD is at complete odds with Mr Ahmed's statements. This position is gathered via valid democratic processes from its trainee members, and reflects my own veiws toghether with any trainee colleague with whom I have discussed this issue. I can understand that training can be acheived within 48hrs. But only if all of that 48hrs is training, and at least 75% of that is operative. However, this cannot currently happen alongside service provision. I.e. not within the NHS is it exists today So the options are: draw up a plan to reconfigure the NHS in it's entirety, or lobby for a veto of EWTD, allowing surgeons to work a few more hours a week and enabling sensibly staffed 24 hour on-call rotas. It is clear to me which option is the obligation of the Royal Colleges. - Greg Taylor Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:07:19 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-67 This is one of the biggest issues in training today and Mr Ahmed is not well informed on the subject. If he speaks for the trainees then he should not duck the difficult issues. It is widely regarded by us all that EWTD is ruining surgical training. - James Haddow Wed, 10 Aug 2011 21:00:58 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-66 Soinds like he has been told to speak what the college wants to hear! Having been involved with pre- and post-48 hour week era and seeing the way our training is run currently, there is no way surgical training will deliver the skills essential to become a Consultant within the stipulated time scale. I can see it in my juniors and easily compare it to how I was at their stage in the training. - s subramonia Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:03:45 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-64 ".....his view on the topic is both surprising and refreshing" - I'd suggest ill-informed and naive would be more appropriate descriptive terms for Mr Ahmed's opinions on EWTD. How has it arisen that one autonomous trainee is representing all trainee members' opinions at RCSEd? Is it just because their council recognise it will be easier to push one person into submission (as opposed to a representative of an appropriately elected democratic association of trainees) whilst still being able to maintain that they "take into account the views of trainees"? This is a backward step; I am glad that I'm not a member of the Edinburgh college. - Thomas Pinkney Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:34:13 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-63 This gentleman clearly has not engaged in many of the arguements for and against the EWTD in surgical training. ASIT, PLASTA and BOTA have all expressed concerns and there is good evidence a significantly higher proportion of us think it is detrimental. Moreover I cannot think of one EUU state that adheres to the EWTD, or pays the central politicans the "fines" that are supposed to be in place for those contravening the laws. This is a poor start for a lone ranger trainee rep who is unrealistic about how our trianing has evolved in the last 2-3years. - Daniel Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:23:45 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-62 It is well established that training is technically possible in a 48 hour week, if most of the 48 hours is spent training rather than providing a service. This is not currently the case and there is no clear path to this way of working. The lost hours have been taken from training time over service provision. I certainly spent the majority of my working week providing an NHS service. There is nowhere in Europe obviously providing optimal surgical training in a true EWTD 48 hour week. Either the training is suboptimal or the EWTD is ignored, avoided or circumnavigated. It is important that a trainee representative is aware of these issues and the feeling of the surgical trainee body is adequately portrayed to council. I am not sure how this is possible for one individual without a network of colleagues to give input from members of the college around the UK. - Marc Bailey Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:18:24 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-61 For an objective view based on the views of over 1600 trainee surgeons, rather than the subjective view of one individual, please see http://www.asit.org/news/wtd_implementation - J Dawson Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:12:05 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-59 I grew up in France, my father is a doctor in France, my other half is Spanish and has worked as a doctor in Spain. I have friends who work as doctors/surgeons in Spain, France, Germany, Austria and the UK. They know about EWTD but they do not respect it, many rotas do not take ETWD in account. Maybe EWTD is gaining support but is it not yet accepted by all European countries, not least by the very countries who suggested ETWD in first place. Your statement is not necessarily true but it does unfotunately show the political direction of the college... :( - matei Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:10:25 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-58 I am afraid that, whilst Mr Ahmed is entitled to his opinions, they are in no way representative of the opinions of the current training body. I would draw people's attention to this link http://www.asit.org/assets/documents/ASiT_BOTA_EWTD_Survey_Press_Release___ November_2009.pdf This a Joint ASIT and BOTA press release regarding trainee attitudes to the EWTD. From my contact with European colleagues, on the whole, they ignore the directive. Those who's governments are looking to implement the regulations are now looking to the current standard of training in the UK and are worried that their own systems will go that way. We should not be proud of this. - Steve Hornby Tue, 09 Aug 2011 18:53:39 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-57 It is a real shame that Issaq has not represented the very well researched and documented opinion of the trainees he is representing. This is that they are not being trained within a 48 hour week. He has also ignored the BMA's research into the working practices within the rest of Europe which showed a lack of implementation and monitoring in most other countries. Issaq should also closely scrutinise the level of training achieved in several European countries. Surgeons who have been on the speciality register in some European countries have been applying for further training in the UK and/or entry onto the speciality register in the UK. When you speak to these surgeons their level of experience and competence falls below that we would expect when awarding a CCT. - Alasdair Thomas Tue, 09 Aug 2011 16:36:31 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-56 People in responsible positions should weigh their statements based on hard facts. Its a bit sad that our only representative at the Royal College has got this "most important" issue completely wrong. If only his research into this topic was as proactive and thorough as his research into the history of RCS. Well i just have one suggestion to make - Dear Colleague, please dont make a blunder that will ruin surgical training forever in this country. Most surgical trainees in this country would agree 'Surgical training is not adequate with EWTD'. Lets have a referendum, shall we? - anish kadakia Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:39:47 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-55 Completely wrong - Tristan Lane Tue, 09 Aug 2011 13:44:49 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-54 No one in the world follows the EWTD except the UK where training and cutting is suffering. It is a shame that the only trainee on a RCS board is mistaken in the extreme. - Tristan Lane Tue, 09 Aug 2011 13:44:18 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-53 I agree with the above comment by ben dean. At a recent course I had the opportunity to speak to a surgical registrar from Holland. She regularly worked 70hours a week. When I asked 'what about EWTD?' she said that in Holland it was disregarded for all registrar training posts. While i'm not saying that I particularly want to work 70hours+ per week I think that the suggestion that alll other European countries are sticking rigidly to EWTD is clearly simply not true and it is worrying that our new trainne representative is so out of touch with reality. - Liz Smith Tue, 09 Aug 2011 11:33:54 +0100 http://www.tenhillplace.com/Sitting-down-to-speak-up.html#comment-52 I disagree. We need more hours now. The rest of Europe tends to ignore the EWTD and this is how they cope. We stick to it and it is killing our training. - ben dean Tue, 09 Aug 2011 10:51:32 +0100